The Black Flame

This is mostly going to be a staging area for the accumulated ideas. See The Burning Truth for the beginnings of an actual Wiki page.

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Quick Chatlog Summary

Kierothrax/Eliga discussion

Fluff Short Story

Black Dragon Powaz

Major Tenets

Holy Symbols

Geopolitics

Practices

Followers

Structure

Holy Sites

Weaknesses (Physical or Geopolitical)

Quick Chatlog Summary

Basic Discussion (Kiero is too lazy to summarize this neatly)

[18:16] Mori: Well, I saw that really only one of the dropdowns was about the Argenti setting...

[18:16] Mori: Does the other stuff apply?

[18:19] K: Not really, I'm afraid. Kiero exists on an entirely different scale (dur hurr) and power level than he does in his baseline setting. It's more a matter of broadness than depth, however. Eliga and I have established that his cult has established him as a psychopomp due to his self-made mythology establishing the "Belly of the Black Flame" as a pseudo-purgatory. A refinery sort of setup, wherein mortal impurities are burned away before a "Shadow's" next incarnation.

[18:19] Mori: Ahhh, OK, so there's already been work done.

[18:19] K: He's also capable of assuming a human form (non-fixed) and some illusion magic, on the basis of that mythology that he's set out there.

[18:20] K: Physical forms being mere perceptions etc etc.

[18:21] K: His nation state is somewhere in the area of an early Islamic caliphate, except with way more gnostic/hindu-style mythology and moral code and only some properly monotheistic elements.

[18:21] Mori: Jesus, there's one hell of a foundation set here

[18:23] K: It is! It's a weird setup where in worship of other divinities isn't morally wrong per-se, in the same way that idolatry is, but it's incomplete/foolish. Because of the pseudo-solipsism of the mythology.

[18:24] Mori: Incomplete?

[18:25] K: Other divinities are also shadows of the black flame. Some are more similar to that which casts them, but they still aren't the true face of divinity.

[18:25] Mori: So what would the work tonight be focused around? Besides K.

[18:25] K: Well, where he's actually going to be!

[18:25] Mori: I'm only asking because it sounds like you've already got a fair amount written up!

[18:28] K: The geography is vague, but so far all we've established is that he borders NotFrance (whatever Bronwen's country is called. Llantyron or something?). But how big is the Dracocaliphate? How powerful? Is it a world-shaping empire like the Umayyads?

[18:30] Mori: Mm, alright. All important questions, to be sure.

[18:31] K: There's also discussion of a doom cult.

[18:31] K: But we'll see what becomes of that.

[18:31] Mori: Probably some doom!

[18:34] Mori: Well, hopefully I make some good contributions.

[18:35] K: I expect as much!

[18:41] Mori: Does Kiero serve as the actual ruler of the caliphate or just as a figurehead?

[18:41] Mori: And the magic you mentioned earlier..."perception = reality" ?

[18:43] K: Well, if the Black Flame is the source of all living things (or the world, more likely, if I were to flesh the holy book out more), and all are merely shadows of its presence, then its incarnation is logically just one more shadow. Thus, transforming into something else or fooling the senses would be a natural extension of its power.

[18:43] Mori: So he's not really the avatar, just a...representative of it?

[18:45] K: “It sat alone, and in its solitude it flickered and danced and cast shadows of light.” “Some shadows called themselves men, some elves, some dragons and some devils, some satyrs and some spirits.” These imply that nothing is real in the same way as the Black Flame, meaning that its incarnation can't be real, either.

[18:45] K: Otherwise you run into the Trinity issue.

[18:45] Mori: Ooh, I see...

[18:45] K: Wherein a human is both divine and human.

[18:47] K: I mean, I don't have a problem with Christian theology in general, but if you're fabricating such a thing from whole cloth, you don't want to create scenarios that create theological divides like that.

[18:48] Mori: Ha, yeah, I know what you mean.

[18:49] K: Though, ironically, he can't alter his draconic form because of the way belief works.

[18:49] K: Physical changes are much, much further down the line to godhood.

[18:51] Mori: So he's too strong to change his form?

[18:51] K: No, no. He's far too weak. Belief shapes abilities and personality, first, then form later.

[18:52] Mori: Ahhh, OK.

[18:54] K: So he can shapeshift and do some illusionary stuff, but his shameless self-promotion of his perfection and divinity haven't, for example, begun to clean away his scars and imperfections.

[18:55] Mori: I see. Is there a degree of ego to it? Or that perhaps his own self-image affects him stronger than others'?

Anne: There was a point where I argued (or at least imagined) that the changes to K’s form are hostage to whatever whims his so-called “subjects/followers” are able to conjure up. E.G. he would need to be extremely careful about what sorts of mythos he sows.

Anne: In other words, let’s say that K needs to attune to the current of consciousness in order to make adjustments to his form & abilities. Something like that.

[18:55] K: I'm not sure. That's a point for discussion.

[18:55] K: I should probably pastebin this for the discussion.

[18:57] Mori: Have other people asked?

[18:57] K: Well, to prep and burn through these bits we've gone over.

[18:57] K: Only Eliga and I have really fleshed this out.

[18:59] Mori: Alright, fair enough! I was kind of surprised by how much you actually had already.

Kierothrax/Eliga discussion

[01:27] Eliga: Oh, sure. When you say day 0 I assume you mean the present day?

[01:28] Kierothrax: Yes. I assumed that some sort of narrative is going to be written in the setting eventually. So I wanted to distinguish the starting point from a more nebulous "present."

[01:30] Kierothrax: Or is it meant to be a jumping-off point without a true canon?

[01:30] Eliga: Mmk. Yeah, I think we'd talked before about where it'd be appropriate for him to lie in the power progression you'd talked about

[01:32] Eliga: I really like the idea of a world canon where the setting progresses. I don't think every RP needs to happen in the same time or have every event committed to canon, but I feel like major changes should be reflected and borders should shift.

[01:33] Eliga: What specifically were you thinking about ironing out?

[01:36] Kierothrax: Basically how genre-savvy or supernaturally aware he is. To some degree, he has a huge edge in understanding that belief creates truth in Argenti, rather than vice versa.

[01:37] Eliga: I imagine it'd be more of a gut feeling than a cerebral understanding, and he comes to learn the actual methods of manipulation through experimentation. It'd be a bit too much of an edge if he can see behind the curtain from the beginning, I think

[01:39] Kierothrax: Well, my logic was thus: in his draconic form, he's supernaturally imposing and perfect in a way that an old-fashioned biological dragon wouldn't be. This is despite being (still) pretty unimpressive and small by draconic standards because there is no point of comparison for those who perceive him and he's actively hyped himself up as a living god. Unless this is a really subtle change, he'd notice the fact that his scars are disappearing and his physical imperfections are starting to be eroded.

[01:41] Kierothrax: And unlike the god-walkers, he's not sharing his path with others. He's already won his 'trial.' (Though he probably hasn't in reality. He isn't a hero to travel a path of transcendence. Awe, adoration, and belief, is a treasure for him to hoard, unconsciously or otherwise.

[01:42] Kierothrax: He's accumulative, not transformative. In part because his transformation from nonbeing to being has already occurred.

[01:46] Kierothrax: *Are treasures. Whoops!

[01:47] Eliga: Ah, I see what you're saying. In general, I'd seen the process of godwalking and ascension as largely rooted in perception and subtlety. Because so much of it is about building an identity, it makes physical change somewhat problematic.

[01:49] Kierothrax: Hm. So how does his transformative powers fit in, then? Can he only change between human forms, but not alter his "true" form?

[01:49] Eliga: I'd think he wouldn't be able to alter his true form.

[01:50] Eliga: Though I have to wonder, isn't it possible for the image he's trying to seed to run away from him too? Sects and schisms do happen.

[01:51] Kierothrax: Definitely. How often do they happen when their god-king exists and has a non-trivial urge and capability to correct heterodoxy?

[01:52] Eliga: Hmm, that's a good point. I suppose it also involves how he intends for it to spread. If he wants to seed it far and wide, there are some geographical barriers to absolute control

[01:55] Kierothrax: Absolutely. But there's a drastic difference between allowing sufis to take different approaches and interpretations of the word of the prophet and letting even-distant Christians deny e.g. the trinity of god.

[01:56] Eliga: But on the subject of physical change, my view of it was always of the ascension being worn as a persona more than an actual literal transformation into the god. So the physical resemblance helps, but it's largely behavioral association.

[01:56] Eliga: Hmm, that's true.

[01:56] Kierothrax: Ask the Cathars how that went.

[01:56] Kierothrax: OH WAIT

[01:57] Kierothrax: :P

[01:57] Eliga: Haha

[01:57] Kierothrax: [sub]You can't.[/sub]

[02:08] Kierothrax: So if his physical form isn't altered, that's fine. That was actually meant to just be a staging idea for something else entirely. I'm still working out the details of his cult/religion.

But a concept that appealed to me was him - when accepting audiences in human form, rather than using it as a disguise - essentially 'opening' himself to others perceptions. Not in what they expect him to be, but in what would at once appeal to them (sexually being one option, but possibly in some other fashion) and unsettle them. To reinforce the idea that his purity and supremacy is an intrinsically separate/inhuman thing. Because he doesn't want any of his half-breeds (which he'll inevitably create, having the appetites the he has) to be [i]capable[/i] of being raised to match him.

[02:08] Kierothrax: If that makes any sense.

[02:10] Eliga: Hmm. I think I need some clarification on that idea.

[02:11] Kierothrax: It's possible that I'm beelining for deity/outsider too quickly for the effect to make sense.

[02:13] Eliga: Yeah, I'd think that carving out your own legend would be a slow road. Imitating someone else takes a great deal of a human's life and pretty rigorous trials, and they're just walking in well worn paths.

[02:15] Kierothrax: Oh, I didn't mean being able to know what behavior or approaches he ought to take to undermine whoever he's meeting with. Just instinctively allowing his interlocutor's ideas to shape his physical guise.

[02:16] Kierothrax: I was thinking of it in the same terms as his original forming, but not nearly as drastic. Allowing the weird psychoactive firmament that he consists/consisted of to respond to a particular person.

[02:17] Kierothrax: Unless such a transformation is permanent and unidirectional, in which case this idea is utter nonsense.

[02:18] Kierothrax: I may be going way too far into the subjective nature of reality. If so, sorry.

[02:19] Eliga: Oh, I see. So kind of like loosening his sense of identity. Partially slipping back into the aether to reform constantly.

[02:19] Kierothrax: Exactly.

[02:19] Kierothrax: If that'd work, would it get [i]what they expected him to be[/i]? Or could he partially shape how he 'responds.'

[02:20] Eliga: It's interesting. I'd actually rolled around the idea of superposition of physical forms before.

[02:22] Eliga: I'd kind of leaned away from it though because of the way it complicates politics and power struggles. If the king of Llanteyrnon is always an actual physical vessel for Teyrnon rather than an avatar, it brings up the question of why their expansion hasn't been completed and how there can be any sort of legend about his return when he's already there.

[02:22] Kierothrax: Well, except that Kierothrax isn't a dragon.

[02:23] Eliga: Plus, personally, I like the grounding of a physical form. Maybe it could be the sort of thing handled by glamour rather than actual physical transformation?

[02:23] Kierothrax: Then it's a useless ability.

[02:23] Kierothrax: If he can't actually manipulate size, he should just maintain his appearance.

[02:24] Kierothrax: There's no real way that a human can be more impressive than a dragon for making a cult of personality/false religion in a preindustrial society.

[02:24] Kierothrax: Unless they're already demonstrating supernatural powers.

[02:26] Eliga: Yeah, this is true. Mostly, I'm hesitant because of the potential implications of a willing transition between the corporeal world and the magical essence of it.

[02:26] Kierothrax: But that's literally what he is.

[02:26] Eliga: What sorts of limitations did you see on it?

[02:27] Eliga: Ah, the way you'd shown it to me before gave me the impression that once he's in the world, it's not so easy to slip back out.

[02:31] Eliga: I guess I should ask at what point in the process do you see this occurring?

[02:32] Kierothrax: Well, that's part of what I saw his progression to be. To begin with, he is a creature of flesh. But flesh is, fundamentally, fundament, is it not?

[02:33] Kierothrax: Where is the separation between spirit and flesh if belief can reshape both world and mind?

[02:35] Eliga: Oh, okay. I was primarily getting hung up on the idea that he's able to do this at day 0. I think it'd be pretty natural for him to perform deliberate transformation, but releasing his form and allowing himself to be carried by the perceptions of others seems like the sort of subtlety that wouldn't occur until late in the process.

[02:40] Kierothrax: Hm. So should transformation in general be a later sort of thing?

[02:41] Kierothrax: Or would voluntary transformation be an easier task?

[02:43] Eliga: I think voluntary transformation would be easier and the passive sort would come later. I think the place of transformation within the progression made sense, though.

[02:55] Kierothrax: Okay. Well, I should've slept a while ago, but setting aside ideas of supernatural power. How strong do you want his state to be as things begin?

[02:56] Kierothrax: I don't want to lean overly much on the islamic analogy, as I'm already trying to tie in elements of Hinduism and Buddhism and the ultimate state won't look anything like one of the historical Caliphates, but is he still in the rapid conquest phase, or has that begun to settle?

[02:56] Kierothrax: [sub]Obviously rapid conquest is an oversimplification as the islamic conquests went on for centuries but y'know what I mean.[/sub]

[02:57] Eliga: Did you still have the idea of his expansion involving taking control in a power vacuum and providing protection?

[02:58] Kierothrax: As is appropriate.

[02:58] Kierothrax: But it likely escalates drastically from there.

[03:00] Kierothrax: He exists on a fundamentally different scale than his default canon.

[03:01] Eliga: Actually, thinking on it a bit, he'd probably be in the conquest phase still. It'd make perfect sense for him to try to push into Llanteyrnon too.

[03:02] Eliga: If he'd begun to settle, it'd probably be the result of a stalemate of some sort, but I think there should be a bit of time before political collisions and out and out battles over territorial disputes show up.

[03:03] Eliga: So I imagine he's still claiming territory at a rate that people have noticed but haven't readied to act against yet.

[03:08] Kierothrax: Well, that makes an excellent framing scenario. Would you want to play out a skirmish or the last gasps of a battle, or would we want to proceed directly to the diplomacy?

[03:10] Eliga: Hmm. I'm leaning towards the diplomacy, but what was your reasoning for the battle?

[03:15] Kierothrax: A border skirmish or some such. Or would his intrusion have occurred but not as of yet been responded to?

[03:19] Eliga: I think what's likely to happen is he'd run roughshod over the countryside unless a knight happened to be pursuing the Quest in the area.

[03:20] Kierothrax: Hm. So is this going to end up being a 'bite and hold' scenario?

[03:20] Eliga: Yeah, that's how I see it.

[03:21] Kierothrax: Because even without the nastiness of modern weapons, it's trickier to attack than defend as long as you know the attack is coming. Which is a lot easier to know when you have flying reconnaissance.

[03:22] Kierothrax: Of course, the supernatural superweapons change things. But that's where the diplomacy comes in.

Fluff Short Story

“In the beginning, there was darkness, and that darkness was the Black Flame.”

One moment, he is not, and then he has been. He remembers his birth – cold, wet; wriggling from the shell; keening, crying – and his mother – ''solemn, firm; red as ruby. He remembers her loss – screams, roars; the hiss of flame, the crack and screech of scale and steel – and his survival – fleeing, hunting; rage, fear''. He remembers growing strong and proud, alone; the last of his kind.

And yet, some small part of him (parts, rather; calcifying wisps of firmament resisting a suddenly-static form), remembers that he was not.

But now I am, he thinks.

“It sat alone, and in its solitude it flickered and danced and cast shadows of light.”

The urges come over him slowly at first: a goat here, a chicken coop there. But they twist and grow until they escape his grasp. He dives into a lake until his lungs and limbs burn, fishing one trinket after another from the murky depths. Rage steals his mind from him as he flies over squat huts and fragile villages. It forces him to the ground and turns his vision red until he paints the world red and black with smoke and blood.

Belief may move mountains but it can not strike dead the living or steal treasures from the earth, and so he must suffice.

He hauls them from the wreckage, when he can. The tiny, cowering things find themselves easily caught in his claws. And then they are alone with a monster in the darkness of his lair. But here, the story is different. A dragon is more cat than shark, after all, and so he fights down the burning hunger in his stomach and he listens.

They beg and plead; pray and curse. He learns of gods and gold; of silk and sadness. As he learns, he begins to question, and believing that they can buy their lives, their freedom, they answer. He learns that there is a world beyond what he can see. A world, he remembers, which plucked him from the womb of nonexistence and forced this life upon him.

And so he decides: If I must belong to this world, then it will belong to me.

“Some shadows called themselves men, some elves, some dragons and some devils, some satyrs and some spirits.”

For all that he knows, all that he learns, he does not learn his intended purpose until it is nearly too late.

They descend upon him with blade and blessing. Their wrath is proud and righteous, and it nearly breaks him in the first minutes of their trap. He flees from them, the blood of their bait still on his lips and claws. But he is not now what he once was. And so he does not lead them to his den, but deep into the wilderness, into woods far enough from man that they could, at times, silence the whispered demands of the Quest.

They offer no solace now. The Quest tugs at his battered, bleeding body. There must be an end. There must be a reckoning.

Cornered by his own being, he turns against his pursuers as he must. He fights. He kills and he kills and he kills again.

It is the third death that frees him. The hunters' fellowship breaks with the body of their leader. They scatter like mice. Something in Kierothrax's mind breaks, as well. But it is not the snapping of a bridge of the abyss. He does not plummet into madness. It is the breaking of a trap. However wounded, he is free.

One, leg too hurt to flee, spits helpless spite up at him and he thinks, There must be an end.

Black Dragon Powaz

Kierothrax, as the incarnation of the Black Flame, must take the unjust and         damned (worst criminals) to be purified and reborn.

The Black Flame can summon back the spirits of the dead for inquiry/binding/etc. (We Siliumgar now)

Kierothrax is known to take on human form, walking among its subjects without their knowing.

Not yet

Kierothrax can grant a semi-draconic transformation, granting some of the Black Flame's power to a worthy mortal (co-opting the quest mechanism)

The Black Flame, wielded properly, can both harm and heal, though it is never         pleasant

As the Black Flame grants life, so too can it be rekindled.

So, depending on the availability of magic in the setting in general this seems like a pretty fair powerset when you consider he’s essentially a fledgling god.

If power is based on perception, would his will eventually be co-opted by this invented “Black Flame” persona? The idea of K as a furnace with the all-powerful flame inside of him...but nothing really going on in his head.

Major Tenets

The Black Flame is the center of creation and its one truth. All else that is, living and dead, creature and thing, are merely shadows of the holy fire. Should this flame ever be extinguished, all life will cease to exist.

Fire and purity are the same. Smoke is produced by air in its jealousy. The reward of successful ambition is power. (Shamelessly stolen from Kossuth’s dogma, possibly recycle it somehow to be less of a shameless ripoff)

Holy Symbols

Somewhat abstract flames - wrought iron? (Black and permanent, but not mutable. An imperfect replication.) (Obsidian?) (Obsidian doesn’t strike me as the best choice to represent fortitude and permanence, which kind of strikes me as something a religion would want?) (It could definitely be used in rituals, though, a la the ancient Aztecs, and it’s volcanic, besides. Volcanos = lots of fire, don’tcha know) (Then there likely ought to be some thematic connection between all of this and actual volcanoes if you want to lean on obsidian as a major part of the… religion… thing) (Onyx?) (Black candles?)

Dragon fang with flame background? Obsidian icon that could be a claw or lick of flame depending on the POV?

Is K the kind of dragon to molt his scales? It’d be an incredible honor to receive one of them if he did. Maybe even big enough to be used as weapons/armor/shields?

Stars? They’re giant flames in the sky, to a certain extent. (Do the people in this setting know that?) (Eclipses could apply, though. Giant black ball of fire? Seems right up K’s alley) (A lot of the language here makes the whole thing feel very terrestrial - “belly” in particular makes me think of the core of the world, seething and roiling. Stars might be a little too cosmological to fit the theme, but that’s just IMO - C)

Would the country K rules over be European-inspired enough to have “traditional” heraldry?

A coiled serpent/wyrm, black in color, set over a background of fire? (Too literal, maybe.)

Obviously the meanings wouldn’t be identical, but it’s something to consider.

Holy moley great balls of fire? That’s goodness gracious, get with the times.

Is K a wyvern, wyrm, drake, or a cis-dragon? (It’d actually be kinda sweet if one of his domains was speech/reading disorders)

If he’s a dragon, what does he hoard? (He’s the black flame… so does he hoard life?) (Do dragons hoard at all in this world? Is that a thing?) (It’s all for the hoard, bruh) (might be interesting if he started out without one, but his followers provided him with one out of reverence) (That actually could tie into ‘hoarding life’.  If his followers provide him with sacrifices that he doesn’t really want, he could just kinda… keep ‘em)

Kiero’s hoard is power. Accumulative, rather than transformative, but a similar process as the hero’s journey that humans follow. - K

(He likes pretty things, too.) (possible political scandal involving interns) (The K is for Kawaii)

>scandal

>implying that that isn’t wrapped into the religion

???

>immaculate conception

(>world falls to serfdom)

>That’s a forward thinking religion if it takes interns into account

Interns, slaves, eh. Same difference. (Slaveterns) (Serf’s up)

Geopolitics
 * Light bonfires along traveled roads within their domain. They pay homage to Kierothrax, and keep their light keeps the road lit for travellers?


 * Trades? Economy? What does a cult DO exactly? Just harvest what they need to survive then do weird religion stuff all day?


 * The cult is much more like early islam as discussed above, in terms of geopolitical reach and structure. Temporal bearing, and not laser-focused on worship all the time. Probably regular worship for the same reason - ensures that people don’t forget about god


 * If it’s reminiscent of Islam, there ought to be restrictions that in turn spur certain developments and stymie others. Muslim architecture and calligraphy, for example, is beautiful because >no graven images


 * Like Islam in power structure and reach. Strong gnostic/hindu elements insofar as all deities/spirits are reflections of the one true god, but taken even further - all everything are reflections of god.


 * That’s not to say that some reflections aren’t ‘better’ or ‘worse’ - definitely some hierarchy


 * Is the cult widespread enough that they’d have their fingers in politics in some capacity?


 * In a shadow manner. This is all about shadows or something.


 * Sort of the opposite. The temporal world is the shadow. The Black Flame is the only thing that’s real. - (Yeah but can they afford to be so up-front about it?) Logical extension; the Black Flame interfering in the physical world is natural, as it does so intrinsically


 * Direct geopolitical opposition would be the navel-gazing Llanterns. If they in any way disagree with the tenants that are being talked about here, then you would probably see the aristocracy barring any attempts at wide-spread influence.


 * There’s an active Inquisition quashing heresy in Llanteyrnon


 * Furthermore, to the east, you’ve got The Protectorate (and I seriously need to change that name because it’s chafing me), who’ve got their fingers in just about everything from trade to magic (ley lines & reagents) to political pull. They’re not going to give up even a modicum of power without a fight.


 * The Recorders will record, as is their lot in life, and will refuse to take sides unless bribed substantially. Or promised cake.


 * Ia Chulhu fhtagn, from what I’ve heard. ← I am proud this got its own bullet


 * Plus dance parties.  Big giant semi-naked whirling, writhing dance parties in honor of the Black Flame.  Hopefully around a black flame. May Day analogue? Summer solstice?  Maypole dance, but far more devout.  Solstice works too. Maybe on eclipse days? That’d be hard to plan :P

Practices

What are adherents expected to do?
 * Spread the faith. Something something spread (fan) the flames.


 * Justice, or something, I don’t know? Right wrongs, maybe.


 * Aggressive justice? No forgiveness/acquittal? Flames don’t strike me as merciful, but there could be an element of “IT’S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, SINNER, BE PURGED IN THE BLACK FLAME ETERNAL”


 * As was mentioned, the flames can reincarnate people, I think? By fire be purged. Sear off the sin, and be reborn as someone who isn’t such a punk.


 * There can be lesser and greater degrees of this - punitive branding, ritualized maiming with fire, etc.


 * Justice is definitely part of Kiero’s “domain” - he eats the worst criminals himself.

What constitutes worship? (Can’t go wrong with the kowtow)
 * Establish a working government? Red mentioned that the first iteration of Islam began as a warmongering sort of state: a work in progress to show that the governance could work, if you will.
 * Zoroastrian-styled Sacred Flame could definitely be a thing: ties in with talk of roadside bonfires and the like. Find nearest flame, genuflect towards.


 * Little roadside shrines with “eternal” flames would be cool wait no they’d actually be extremely hot what am I saying


 * Ceremony. Burning of pyres.


 * Lip service paid during criminal trials, perhaps?


 * He’s a judge or something, right?


 * Strikes me as beneath him, though I don’t know if he’s a “distant” ruler or more up close and personal.

Are there offerings to be made?
 * Sacrifices by fire?

Small charcoal tokens, maybe? (Worship via grilling - C) Delicious feastdays GET.
 * If so, what do we burn to appease the K? (Effigies? Non-believers? Animal sacrifices? - C)
 * Is it an honor or a disgrace to burn?

Is proselytizing (This big word means conversion.) part of their practice? Could just be god-shaming. “Your god? They ain’t SHIT. They’re merely a SHADOW. Our guy’s the REAL DEAL”. Mix of bullying and similarity-finding always works well for this kind of stuff. “tl;dr your god’s a nerd but hey this stuff is a lot like ours so really SWITCH TODAY FOR SIX-MONTH INTRODUCTORY RATE.”
 * Could be two kinds: voluntary sacrifices that are treated as celebrities/lauded as heroes/saints and involuntary sacrifices meant to demonstrate K’s power
 * I would think so, if the goal is Real Ultimate Power. Find ways to aggressively co-opt existing faiths.

Followers

What kind of person adheres to these principles/follows this religion and why?
 * The wronged, those seeking justice. They pray that one day Kiero consumes those who have done them wrong..


 * Maybe even criminals? Praying to stave him off for one more day.


 * I feel like he could be a devil in a lot of foreign religions or ones close enough to border K-ville. The Black Flame threatening to swallow up their homeland.


 * Followers of old beliefs; think of how the paganistic religions were swallowed up by Christianity, for example. There needs to be common ground for people to believe in this nonsense.


 * Iconoclasts? People who want to upend the established order?


 * People who doubt humanity and think it needs a harbinger of justice a step above man.

Where are they located?
 * Northwest of Llanternland? Yeah, northwest makes sense - Bronwen legoland? Lithuania? Lusitania?  Latvia? Louisiana? Llamaville? Llimonland?


 * Highlands? Wild forests? BARBARIC PLACES


 * Ruins of a crumbling and corrupt empire?


 * In keeping with earlier discussion of volcanoes - some access point to the fires of the planet itself? Active or not


 * And now I’m thinking of glorious Brittania again. Except in an archipelago sort of thing, all volcanic, yeah?


 * I may be biased towards this sort of meta-symbolism but I like the thought of a ‘god’ who people think punishes sinners having its primary base of worship close to a literal mouth to Hell/the Underworld, especially if one of his stated powers is interacting with the spirits of the dead. Well that’s certainly in keeping with the whole volcano thing. Or it could be like the entrance to Hades assumed by Greek mythology? Just sorta tucked into a mountain. (I went with ‘volcano’ because of earlier discussion but it could just lead into a huge cave system that eventually reaches lavaland or something) (Caves would fit. Belly of the earth, etc etc - C)


 * Caves would definitely provide a clear economy for K-ville, too. Precious metals and such. And a means of quick transportation; roads and whatnot. Reserved for those higher up in the faith, maybe? (Lower down?) Or maybe just those “in the faith” at all. Visitors could be relegated to the surface and thus be further from the “Black Flame”


 * I’m more of a fan of caves than volcanos themselves. Sprawling labyrinth in the underbelly of the world. I can definitely play with this; I’ve done some napkin development with things like Aerholm’s Delving Hall and a sort of Lost Age.


 * Side note, though: Kiero can’t actually survive lava right now. He’d die like anything else. Not sufficiently deifically transformed -Right now? So how does his endgame pan out? Kiero wrecks the world and lives in the infernal pit of lava forever because FIRE?


 * maybe meta-symbolism should get its own section, and also METAL SYMBOLISM \m/


 * could get super-meta and have K be “reborn” in the “womb” of the earth aka its core to adhere to the belief of the Black Flame being a reincarnative force

Structure

Kierothrax is obviously at the top. What’s the hierarchy like below him?

Titles?

Gender differences?
 * Hmm. I feel like it might be patriarchal (keep them babies comin') with a fair slice of "you gotta earn it" to keep the population up while also providing incentives. - K


 * If it’s a patriarchy how does he do the whole reproduction thing personally if he does at all? Bring me your best ladies and I shall make more dragons! Or like Zeus where he’s just going around all in disguise like, “Hey girl, let me hit it and quit it and we’ll get a demigod up in them guts”


 * I feel like if there’s a fucking DRAGON as the ruler of your nation/religion, one that you can SEE and TOUCH (in theory), there’s not a lot of room for an actual hierarchy. He’s at the top and that’s that, the underlings exist to enforce/spread his teachings, not to question them


 * Sure, but some people are likely to be required to manage and lead others unless Kierothrax intends to micromanage everything himself.


 * What I mean is that they’d be primarily government/municipal leaders, not religious ones


 * If this is meant to be a war-mongering religion, then it would make a lot of sense to see warrior-priests, or your typical RPG clerics.


 * The Black Flame consumes all...which means there’d be a fuckton of crusades, in all likelihood

(That would probably go under practices if it was a thing - Em) I mean this as a direct, oppositional analogue to Llanternland’s god-walking Knights; warriors held in high esteem by the clergy
 * Something something blood of the dragon (does he really have that many bastards running around?) No I mean like ritual blood drinking or something like that.

Holy Sites

What are places of significance to the religion?
 * Volcanoes (Regardless of how closely the religion is tied to volcanoes, it’s pretty clear that their mere existence is analogous to the flames at the core of the earth spreading to the surface, so maybe they’re a symbol of dogma/used by proselytisers)

Are there any they don’t currently hold?

What about the site of Kiero’s “birth”?

This would be in Llanteyrnon’s territory, if anywhere. Possibly even in Bronwen’s march.

Is there some sort of relic that actually appears to be an eternally burning black flame? That could be a major religious site, with 24 hour guards posted to keep blasphemers and punk kids from trying to put it out. (Is there a religious site carefully constructed to look as if there’s a black flame constantly burning? Is there a site symbolically maintained in such a fashion, but people know it’s all a show?)

Tar pits mite b cool, given that they’re hot and black

- Now imagining drowning people in tar

Ooh, OK, what if consumption by K was an honor, to be reborn and moved forward in your station in life, but to be relegated to the tar pits was to be preserved forever in your miserable misfortune.

You know what else is hot and black? MY CO...ffee.
 * Is any of K’s burgeoning empire centered on ley lines? Important concept for the harnessing of overflowing magic. Could tie into primitive knowledge of tectonic plates given the geological theming K seems to have religiously


 * I’m thinking the lair/island would definitely be. Perhaps intuitively sought-out, as he’s a quest creature by nature? - K


 * Good. Then this makes K’s cult a direct antagonist to The Protectorate


 * Filthy hairless apes!


 * Want to see some sort of communion with the energies of the world in the practices section. Ley lines are one of the few direct fonts to which magic is accessible.

Weaknesses (Physical or Geopolitical)

Bring it on you punks!

First I think we need to firmly establish that K would be Fire/Flying-type and therefore he’d get fucking destroyed by Rock moves. - C (Can he fly? Wouldn’t at least one type be Dragon?) Tell that to Charizard Classic  We like gen seven now

Fire’s weak to Rock? Fuck me, it’s been too long since I rememorized my types. Have you ever tried to light a rock on fire? I use ice beam.
 * I’m not the only one picturing him as a Mega Charizard, am I? Maybe a little -K

Neighbors a thoroughly entrenched religion with significant evidence and cultural integration.

Weak to cute gingers. [eicon]emapproves[/eicon] <3 (yes -not Saruya)

Inability to be a powergaming shitty dragon in public leads to humiliation on a regular basis. (fuckin’ roasted) [Kiero is too nice for this concept to work. Wrap it up, guys.]

Becomes infuriated when referred to as ‘dagron’. Exploitable.

“Aw, you’re those dagron priests, right? I’ve heard stuff about your religion.”

Does K have an ego? Could lead to rash political decisions.

Ego, but heavily tempered by the fact that he was nearly killed by a half-dozen humans a few months after being “born”

Do his followers know that? Overzealous missionaries could be a source of “pls guys no i almost got my shit pushed in once”

Lady Sefkell- That’s not a weakness. It’s a curse. Cutest curse ever.

I almost feel like K’s religion itself would attract converts from all over the world but be vilified by his closest neighbors.

Llanteyrnon would hate him. (Who?) fffffffff

Who’s this “Lantern Anon” and why does he keep showing up in the mythology (I think that’s supposed to be Kiero) (Lantern Anon, lanterns have fire. Dragons breathe fire. Checks out.)

Elven Heroes, by which is meant elven monster bullies. (It’s a righteous cause, ok?) (It’s an abhorrent career. It’s murder)(And having a cult of crazies is somehow better?) (Crazies don’t always just go around murdering people in their natural habitats like some kind of armor wearing big game hunter.) (You’re right, they just throw people into volcanoes. Also, the monsters are created by man’s ambition. They’re unnatural) (Look, some people like volcanoes.) (Some people like slaying dragons.) (And only one of those things is immoral.) (Fuck volcanoes) (I’m a volcano, let’s go) (that sounds hot.) (I’ll slay u m8) (I’ll lay u m8) (Lewd)

Dragons are typified by a fatal flaw (ego, avarice, etc), so what’s K’s?

being an huge nerd I’ll get you one day, you green monster! (...green?)

Definitely greed (mostly for power, but also for things). With a side helping of lust  and pride.

Greed/ambition? (Thirst for booty in all its forms)

One of the things about fire IS how it needs to constantly feed to prevent going out.

Incredible ambition could tie in nicely to the idea of his religion’s representation of a black flame. Fires can rage and consume all...or they can burn themselves out if they don’t expand fast enough.

A need to collect all of the cute gingers in the world. That’s actually where the lust comes in.

Key Weakness: can’t actually imbue dragon-priests, yet. They might be able to start accumulating power on their own, but his reach isn’t that far into the metaphysical, yet. (Hello Dark Souls)

He rolled a 6 for Wisdom

Small what? Wisdom score, clearly (It’s the source of the Napoleon Complex that will be his downfall)

How’s he gonna produce an heir- wait is he immortal or something nvm (that’s where the gingers come in)

Maybe that’s part of his long-term godhood plan? - C

Would those heirs in turn be humble...or super-rash? They didn’t have the same brush with death K had, so they’re unlikely to be as prudent as a result

Is this a world where half-dragons run amok trying to make names for themselves? Compete to be the next in line for dear old dad?

Is there even a line? The end goal is immortality, after all. What happens when the children find out there’s no succession? Godship or riot?

If there are other dragons, what’s to stop them from trying to muscle in on his territory? I mean, it’s not like he’d be able to just brush off a few more dragons all that easily, and I doubt the followers would be so quick to see them as charlatans

>implying K isn’t himself a charlatan

-This is actually a pretty good point. Any other big powerful creature could come in. Look how many versions of the bible there are. They could easily splinter his following. Beat him up for his lunch money.

Well, but part of the point of the setting is that all the old monsters and gods are gone. Nope. Or at least removed enough not to beat up humans trying to pull the same thing. Kiero’s, ostensibly, the first-last dragon to exist in decades-centuries.

I’m not sure which I like better, him being the last of his kind, or him being a dragon that sprung up spontaneously from nowhere to start things over. ‘Every ten thousand years or so the universe just spits out a dragon. It’s cool.’

So he’s right? Game over guys.

What about other sentient monsters?

Discussion on power and ascension

[21:12] Eliga: If power is based on perception, would his will eventually be co-opted by this invented “Black Flame” persona? The idea of K as a furnace with the all-powerful flame inside of him...but nothing really going on in his head.

This is a really good idea and something I was meaning to touch on myself.

[21:12] Clover: I need to hammer down a bit more about my new Argenti girl outside of her basic concept

[21:12] Saruya: You've got a new one already?

[21:12] Clover: I think I talked about her at length? I shelved Zoei

[21:12] Morikawa Sachiko: e-eheh

[21:12] Kierothrax: Well, but the Black Flame also encompasses judgement and lust, Eliga.

[21:13] Annabelle Locke: Argenti book one of these days. I swear.

[21:13] Kierothrax: It might transform him, but he's cast himself as a projective incarnation, not the [i]One True Flame[/i]. The mythology explicitly prevents that.

[21:13] Morikawa Sachiko: But what if the people begin to see him as just a figure of justice and lust?

[21:13] Saruya: I heard about Zoei but not about a new one

[21:13] Annabelle Locke: Yeah, I'm curious myself.

[21:13] Morikawa Sachiko: AKA Id and Superego, but no true Ego/Self

[21:14] Morikawa Sachiko: "Celebrity is a mask that eats the face"

[21:14] Saruya: Then he cuffs them round the head because they're worshipping him wrong?

[21:14] Eliga: Sure. Teyrnon is also a symbol of justice and judgment, but I was considering the idea that in the pursuit of power, in trying to cast yourself as the avatar of the ideal, you act in accordance with it until you lose some of yourself.

[21:15] Morikawa Sachiko: After all, an ideal doesn't leave much room for personality

[21:15] Morikawa Sachiko: Justice has to be impartial and objective.

[21:15] Kierothrax: That's definitely a possibility.

[21:15] Eliga: I mean, it could be that Kierothrax can grow close to the full promise of power, but holding onto his identity prevents him from completing the ascension.

[21:15] Kierothrax: But Justice is also totally subjective. See: the Greek Gods.

[21:15] Kierothrax: Unless the ascension we're discussing is One True God tier.

[21:16] Annabelle Locke: brb feeling really weird

[21:16] Kierothrax: Justice tends to mean "whatever the gods dictate."

[21:16] Morikawa Sachiko: Well, even the Greek gods were beholden to the Furies

[21:16] Kierothrax: Definitely.

[21:17] Morikawa Sachiko: When Zeus gave you His blessing, it was more like "YO, THAT'S AWWWWRIGHT"

[21:17] Kierothrax: And the mythology he's forging is entirely unlike the greek gods.

[21:17] Eliga: Presumably some of his deeds would end up codified in stories and restrict his behavior based on precedent, though

[21:17] Kierothrax: How so, Eliga?

[21:17] Kierothrax: If his word is the final source of justice, how does precedence overrule the wisdom of the now?

[21:18] Eliga: I mean, I know there's plenty of stuff in the bible that's contradictory, but pretender gods do exist.

[21:18] Morikawa Sachiko: Well, it'd be cause to doubt a ruler if they were like "X is wrong" one day and "X is right" the other.

[21:18] Morikawa Sachiko: ...In my opinion, at least.

[21:18] Eliga: If he acts in a way that isn't in line with expectations, why wouldn't he come to be seen as an imposter?

[21:19] Kierothrax: Because he's a dragon - an near-immortal font of power even without deification? Unless one of his disciplines beats him to godhood, his primary threat is external.

[21:19] Kierothrax: "You're not the true god." Is a good way to get eaten.

[21:20] Morikawa Sachiko: Hell, you even have precedence set for the idea of an imposter god in the Bible in the form of the "New Testament" god and the Demiurge

[21:20] Eliga: They don't have to confront him to his face. A waning belief in private could be enough to sap his powers.

[21:20] Morikawa Sachiko: Here's hoping Kierothrax gets to his Martin Luther first :P

[21:21] Eliga: I think it's a bit unrealistic to assume that he's trying to spread his religion far and wide and still be capable of personally addressing every heretical thought.

[21:21] Kierothrax: I'm not arguing for total incoherence.

[21:21] Kierothrax: But human-spread religions did a tolerable job of enforcing orthodoxy for literal centuries.

[21:21] Kierothrax: A dragon can move much, [i]much[/i] faster on a strategic scale.

[21:22] Kierothrax: I guess there's a question of how weak we want him to be, in the end. Starting off, he's not as powerful as a single one of Llanteyrnon's knights, has a tenuous power base. His only real strength is his longevity and ability to flee if things go bad.

[21:23] Morikawa Sachiko: Well, that'd make Kierothrax's justice a sort of "might makes right" kind of justice if he eats those who dissent.

[21:23] Kierothrax: And the latter is a lose-state from the perspective of a narrative.

[21:23] Kierothrax: Because all of the other characters will be dead before he ever becomes relevant again.

[21:24] Kierothrax: Sorry. "Both are a lose-state."

[21:25] Eliga: I think the comparison changes when your god is actively introducing new texts to the catechism.

[21:25] Kierothrax: Probably.

[21:26] Eliga: I feel like a source of the quibbling is over time scale, though.

[21:26] Eliga: Where do you see him ending up in say, 50 years?

[21:26] Eliga: If things go according to plan

[21:27] Morikawa Sachiko: Even if Kierothrax is far longer-lived than humans, he's still reliant on comparatively ephemeral humans for worship...I think.

[21:28] Kierothrax: Uuh. Optimistically? Broaching into 4-5 on the list. Much more durable and personally powerful. Probably a match for a handful of Knights. A large empire but very little further incursion into Llanteyrnon, if he even retains what he gets when we start with Bron and him.

[21:28] Remelia: All according to Keikakou

[21:28] Remelia: He sees himself under the heel of a dragonslayer

[21:28] Eliga: Yeah, as is in the setting, the elder (non-human races) have been in a long slide, and it's the age of humans.

[21:28] Kierothrax: Like I said, he's accumulative. He'd need to succeed on the scale of Christianity or Islam in a world with other, very competitive religions to even begin towards his endgame.

[21:29] Morikawa Sachiko:

>Weakness

>Love of BDSM/"dragon-slayer" Roleplay in the bedroom

[21:29] Kierothrax: He's like global warming. You won't notice him (unless you're "costal region") unless it's getting on towards too late.

[21:29] Eliga: Mmk. So you're really seeing his plan as the kind of thing that takes a few centuries at least for ascension.

[21:30] Kierothrax: Definitely. He's gunning for the Throne of Heaven sort of thing, not Grecoroman godhood.

[21:30] Morikawa Sachiko: Would his religion need to be the dominant religion of the world?

[21:30] Kierothrax: He might start edging into the latter in half a century, but the Knights are pretty much already there.

[21:31] Kierothrax: I'd lean towards more of a large plurality. Otherwise his goal is near-impossible. While I'm frowning on more immediate schisms, he can't stay unified forever.

[21:31] Eliga: Makes sense

[21:31] Morikawa Sachiko: To be fair, there were some relatively immediate schisms in the Christian church

[21:32] Eliga: Yeah, but they were mostly ill fated.

[21:32] Kierothrax: Sure, but that wasn't (a) constructed/enforced and (b) tended to have a bad time until the East-West Schism.

[21:32] Eliga: Like that one about abstinence for adherents for life

[21:32] Kierothrax: kek

[21:33] Maximillion English: Ah? Is it over? Are we all brainstormed out?

[21:34] Kierothrax: Basically, my complaint about him getting restrained as he evolves is that it makes him a toothless (or at least mitigated) antagonist. He needs to be redeemed/reformed or stopped before he can take the throne, or you get a Demiurge style scenario where you have a grumpy god sitting over a captive reality.

[21:34] Maximillion English: [sub]Does that mean it's orgy time?[/sub]

[21:34] Kierothrax: Kiero is not a good person.

[21:34] Eliga: It seems like we're winding down. Is there anything else you'd like to take a look at before we release everyone?

[21:34] Kierothrax: [sub]I mean, he can be, but not by default.[/sub]

[21:34] Kierothrax: I feel like I should paste our discussion here.

[21:34] Eliga: Yeah, agreed

[21:35] Maximillion English: I was gonna maybe bring up the concept of Recorders at some point? But this was pretty much centered around K, so it doesn't apply really.

[21:35] Kierothrax: Stupid slimcat line limit.

[21:35] Kierothrax: /me grumbles.

[21:35] Eliga: Yeah, for tonight we're just focusing on Kierothrax's religion. We'll get to other people's ideas in the upcoming writing sessions.

[21:35] Maximillion English: Ur face has a line limit.

[21:35] Maximillion English: /me hides

[21:35] Kierothrax: It is quite smooth and unblemished, yes.

[21:35] Kierothrax: Thank you, human.

[21:35] Maximillion English: Yeah that's right, I called you handsome dagron DEAL WTH IT

[21:36] Kierothrax: /me gives Max a fan and a poorly-concealing silken outfit.

[21:36] Maximillion English: /me stares daggers into Kiero

[21:36] Maximillion English: /me then clasps his eyes and screams 'how the hell did daggers come out that hurts ow'

[21:36] Kierothrax: I'm definitely not railing for him to be [i]the[/i] big-bad. The doom cult is probably worse than he is, from the perspective of those alive now.

[21:37] Kierothrax: But I do want his possible evolution to be a semi-threatening thing.

Ruling Deities
Is it an all-powerful god? Is there a pantheon of spirits, each with a domain?

Creation Myth
Is there a story associated with the creation of the world? How does this affect their belief systems?

Holy Sites
Are there any places in the world that hold special significance?

Artifacts
Are there any special artifacts or relics of power?

Divine Interaction
How do the gods manifest? Is there a significant interaction with the world?

Clergy
Describe the structure. Is there a hierarchy? Are certain roles gender specific?

Supernatural Attitude
What is the attitude toward magic users? Is there any special reverence for mythical or real creatures?

Afterlife
Is there a belief in life after death? Reincarnation? Heaven? Disembodied spirits? How does it relate to believers behavior?

Morality
Describe the morality. Is it a religion that works for the betterment of others? Does it preach neutral balance? Is it a wicked cult? Be as simple or descriptive as you wish.

Holy Virtues
What characteristics are prized above all others?

Deadly Sins
What characteristics are shunned above all others?

Taboos
Are there any major taboos? Food, cultural practices, sexual attitudes?

Cultural Aspects
How do the followers live their lives? Do they behave in a certain way? Does this contribute to the culture of the nations that follow these beliefs?

Worship
How do followers practice their worship?

Inheritance
How is the religion passed down? Is it oral tradition? Are there any special holy texts?

Holidays
Are there any special days set aside? How are they observed? Is there fasting, festivals, etc? How often do they occur? Are they annual?

Marriage
Describe the attitudes toward marriage. Is it between a man and a woman, or can either gender be married? How many husbands/wives? Are there any marital traditions or rites?

Distinguishing Characteristics
Are there any special marks borne by the members of the religion: tattoos, hairstyles, clothing, tokens?

Superstitions
Are there any blindly accepted notions? Any irrational fears of particular things or occurrences?

Followers
Who follows this religion? How dominant/widespread is it?