Talk:Consistency in Magic

Magic

Supernatural force

It can make the impossible, possible. From nothing, something is created: great forces, accomplishing even greater tasks. Razing cities, sprouting crops, even pulling a life back from the brink of oblivion.

A miracle.

Or is it?

Matter cannot be created or destroyed; the same is true of energy. Magic is just that: RAW energy.

From what, then, or from where, does magic come? Where does it go? How does it work? It cannot simply be the end all, the be all, for all those without it are powerless. It's like turning on cheat codes in your favorite game, and suddenly the game is ruined. And no one likes a cheater.

I think it's important that magic be a consumable resource. It can be something incredibly important that the world revolves around, but it shouldn't just be infinite. It'd liken it to the importance of oil in our society.

In Bronwen's area of the setting, the source of all magic (for now) is ultimately collective belief, basically crystallized and tapped into. I think it'd be nice but not necessary if all magic had a shared origin even if it manifested in different ways, at least to operate by the same rules.

The example that you give reminds me of an aquifer. Rainwater falls, seeps through the ground, is filtered, and ultimately collects into a reservoir. From there, the resource, in this case, raw concerted belief, has manifested into a tangible source from which to pull power from. In order to keep the reservoir from emptying faster than it fills, only a select few are allowed to draw from it. In this case, the Knights, the godwalkers: those whom the lesser men and women worship. This would keep boundaries very distinct, as far as society is concerned as well.

Another example is the source from which Annabelle draws her power: life. Life itself is a finite resource. Sacrificing her own energy allows her to accomplish many things, but comes with its own restrictions and handicaps. In small amounts, the energy is renewable, much like biological energy drawn from plants, sustained by the warmth of the sun.

Let's say that paladins, as an example of a magic user, are able to pour a portion of their energy into reagents serving either as catalysts or fuel for more powerful abilities, it would allow them to rest and replenish their energies without subjecting themselves to real danger.

Speaking of catalysts.... Do you have any ideas about what might function as such? To amplify existing energies without being spent. Silver plays a rather predominant theme so far, given "Argenti." What else?

EXAMPLES, EXAMPLES, EXAMPLES!

Don't make this harder than it needs to be. To give an example of my own: feather of a raven for clairvoyance (Celtic mythos).

Honestly, silver is the one that's giving me the biggest headache. It's traditionally associated with purity. How does that tie into the picture of magic as a whole, and the SETTING as a whole? The literary turbonerd in me equates it to Annabelle in a metaphorical sense, like she's the historian cataloguing all these misadventures or somesuch. Annabelle as purity? You wot? (Glaring intensifies) (Hey, silver tarnishes.) Seriously though, the noble metals have always been assumed to have magical power, so there's nothing too out of the ordinary there, really - very consistent with traditional beliefs. So too for gemstones; see the old beliefs that amethyst cured poison, for example. Silver might just happen to be commonplace and reasonably accessible enough that it makes for a particularly popular catalyst.

Following that line of reasoning, gold as a catalyst could suit a number of similar purposes. Fortune comes directly to mind, but not necessarily in a monetary sense. Like... Let's say there's a superstition of a god of luck, who randomly increases or inhibits the effectiveness of spells when gold is present as a reagent.

I'd imagine that artifacts exist that hold inherent magic for some reason or another. In the example of Bronwen's faith, this might be something that used to be in possession of a legendary hero. By holding an existing fragment of magic, it could be used to more easily draw out a larger effect of its power. We're speaking here of relic weapons, or something akin to that horrifying legend Gae Bolg. Seriously, that spear is awful. Yeah something like that.

What's the limit of power on a splinter such as that? Bronwen's gloves can create vortexes and cyclones with a jab. What's the limit? Is there a lifetime?

Part of what I picture is that while energies can be harnessed into items, there is a specific lifespan. As a hopeless chemist, I think of it like half-lives. This could maybe also explain some of the alchemical arts & sciences delved into in Red & fuckingoatman's corner of the world. Ah, that makes sense! "Fresh ingredients," indeed. Tie it into half-lives, the second law of thermodynamics, whatever you want. Something's gotta give. Eventually. Even raw power fades. Yeah, I'd think the power of relics would fade over time. A legend might leave their imprint on the world, but even the memory weakens as it's passed through generations. In that context, we've discussed a theme of belief begets reality a number of times. I believe that it should be mentioned again here; as old beliefs die out, the power that they would grant to certain "reservoirs" or materials governed by such would dwindle as well. Red wunz go fasta.

Along these lines, I'd kicked around the idea that all sources of magic naturally deplete whether or not they're used but continued practice or acts of belief could slow down their decay. That's about as depressing as the law of thermodynamics. Entropy affects all things! And it's still depressing! The world spins towards destruction. Y-yay.

Rashid's corner of the world, at least as I envisioned it - really need to talk to Jon (fucking goatman) about this more - is all about its alchemical practices and astrology; star-reading, divination and prediction, stuff like that. Presumably most of the alchemy would be rather staid stuff - proto-chemistry/medicine, really - but... hm, could someobdy without magical talent even invoke any sort of magically catalystic reaction through the right combination of factors? An idle thought. Anyways, this stuff never got super-fleshed-out - or it did, but it was months and months ago, and much of it has slipped my mind. But I'm thinking fairly standard Chaldean-style stuff here: observe the motions and conjunctions of the heavens, the brightness and positioning of the stars on given days, developments of celestial bodies, etc. and (perhaps unknowingly) channel power through that as a kind of heavenly leyline-tapping. Most commonly invoked for minor divination and soothsaying, but presumably the more initiated could channel greater power from it... probably using suitably catalytic implements, properly-conditioned environs, etc., etc. If magic is a force or matter (something like photons or the four forces of nature in physics), it'd definitely make sense that certain alignments of significant celestial bodies could affect the world. I actually thought of photons myself, heh. MAGICAL PHOTONS! *Wiggles fingers*

I had a funny thought while resting outside. If the people of antiquity could see the way we live now, how much of it would they chalk up to magic? Most of it, at least at first. Give 'em a little bit and they'd put two and two together, though. Clever sorts. You never know. Some things we have now like computers (smart phones especially) are so complex, they'd probably just cargo cult it and never develop an understanding.

So, that is to say that even distant bodies have an effect on the perceivable world which can be interacted with. Am I warm? Well, why not? I wanted to tie it in with the seafaring culture of the Umadbros. They use the stars to ply their trade over the seas; why not use it for their magic? Alchemy follows same notes - trade hub, so lots of rare reagents and objects moving through; lots of options to take their pick from a world's worth of physical arcana that would be less-accessible in other environs. On that note, if we're continuing with the belief affecting reality theme, it's entirely possible that the heavenly bodies are magically created like in many origin stories and not just large bodies of matter floating in space. There are several stories that talk about people becoming constellations or deities purposefully placing stars in the sky. That could be especially interesting in the context of godwalking... What do you think? My notes for the overall story arc actually mention a new constellation when Bronwen twists the story of the king returned. (Bron the egomaniac. jk.(She'll allow Annabelle to worship at her feet.)how lewd)

Not really on subject here, what we were just talking about could be an interesting footnote in a religious belief talk later on. Who needs an immortality story if you can LITERALLY join your ancestors in the heavens? Yeah, I'd thought about apotheosis ($15 dollar word right there) as a motivation to act in accordance to one's religion as opposed a promise of an afterlife in paradise. Good point. It'd also explain the mania for religious experimentation in places where "national cults," so to say, are not so firmly entrenched - gotta find that most efficient path to an eternity of power and glory, after all.

The seed idea for godwalking was actually a setting in which martial characters were the world changing figures (because fuck wizards). So while they weren't able to alter reality as easily, they could invoke strong legends to take advantage of certain scenarios or qualities of figures. Which were so specific as to be ridiculous. An interesting thought, but aside from the comedic aspect, it's not very fun to say that "You must face toward the sun at a 3.72 degree angle, walk three paces, and make two horizontal slashes at a 9.71 degree angle toward the ground!" Well, the idea is that the limitations you choose to apply (by adhering more closely to the chosen legend), the greater power you can draw upon. Effectively a trade between versatility and strength. Not to say that there aren't ways you can borrow strength that are more broadly applicable.

Possible. In the beginning of my RP with Bronwen, I made allusions to mystical creatures, and how parts of them could be harnessed to grant elemental abilities. Bronwen's aspect is OBVIOUSLY fire (dat red hair), and I suggested that something like the plume of a phoenix, woven through her gloves, could give her mastery over the chosen element. E.G., with scholarly knowledge of the attributes of materiel, one could create pseudo-magical effects, or take advantage of items already imbued with power, even if they had no innate ability to channel it themselves.

Such items, I would imagine, would be incredibly expensive (especially considering my example of imbuing raw life energy).

Another idea that was discussed previously was the concept of ley lines, or if not that, then concentrations of energy which could be tapped and harnessed, though not carried or stored, at different points in the world. Right, I recall us mentioning that in conjunction with the steppes, sky-elves, following leylines around, etc., etc. Right, plus a general concentration, which governed the movement of the roaming locuses, left behind from a dead god.

Which brings me to another question. How much of magic's ability is celestial or spiritual, and how much mundane? How do you mean mundane in this context? Blood and bone: life. Stuff of the earth: salts & silver. Hair of the newt. You know. The usual. I think it's an interesting idea to have everything have invocable properties in the alchemical sense of representation but not necessarily as magic that can be drawn out. So say mistletoe might be used as a ward but only as a symbolic icon to focus a spell and not a source of the magic fueling the spell. I'm not sure if this is directly related, but are you suggesting that one could use a focus to enhance the abilities of magic, without needing additional catalyst or materiel? Just... Concentrate on one thing to bring it to reality? Might fit alongside everything else we've discussed.

By making mundane items have usable magic power, you open the possibility of easily accessible magic. Which is something that I think stretches the believability of most fantasy worlds. In general, I'd say that the amount of usable energy which could be tapped to provide work would not be sufficient in mundane items so as to allow magic to be "easily accessible." Is the amount of usable energy purely academic or something where the reagents would still be required but also call for a more powerful source alongside them? I think that a genuine magic user would be able to exploit alchemical or infused reagents MUCH more effectively than a plain person. If you consider a magical user as a catalyst, a considerably smaller amount of the energy would be lost in the process, but the stored energy could only be used for certain applications. On the subject of entropy... I think that it would, at some point, be a question of whether the amount of energy lost would be worth the overall effect. In the case of rarer, or more costly substances, it just wouldn't be practical, or even feasible, for an ordinary person to accomplish something that could be passed off as anything more than stage magic. So irresponsible use of magic could consume it more quickly than necessary? That definitely dovetails with the oil analogy. Gotta make sure that magic doesn't get nerfed in a future patch.